The Biggest Mistake Law Firms Make When Buying AI Technology

speaker-0: And AI is overhyped, to be frank. I don't think it's useless. I think it's absolutely gonna be useful. It's gonna be transformative. But if you haven't heard the microwave analogy for AI, that's kind of where I fall around sort of how I think it's gonna be used. The hype is outstripping the utility at this point.

speaker-1: Almost every technology vendor now claims to have an AI story, right? I talked to so many legal tech providers. I mean I talked to them on the show of floor at Ilticaon, I've talked to him after the show. We'll continue to have a conversation. Everybody's talking about AI. You go on people's websites and it's like AI this, AI that and you look under the hood and sometimes it's not really AI, right? It's just some automation that we've had for twenty years.

speaker-2: A lot of these organizations claim to have AI. As we all know, we were at ILTA few weeks back. It's the value that you can bring and making sure you're a part of that procurement process for the years to come. In my opinion too, there's a very few amount of large LLMs that people are actually using.

speaker-0: You can't describe Iltacon twenty twenty-six without the acronym MCP. I think just about everybody at conference had one. But when we were preparing for this, I was trying to think about what does that actually mean? Like what's sort of the deeper message there? With AI coming in and offering all these capabilities, everybody can buy that tooling, right? So it doesn't really differentiate you as an organization.

speaker-1: Okay, well welcome everyone and thank you for joining us for our live recording. And because this is the InfoGov hot seat, we want you, the audience, to be a part of today's conversation. So you can submit questions at any time by placing them in the chat. We'll monitor the chat throughout the show and work in as many questions as time permits. So if there's something you would like our guests Jason Hunter or myself to address. This is the opportunity to put them and I on the hot seat. But ⁓ before we begin, you may have noticed there's a new logo on our website and the evolution that it represents. And I'll pop it on the screen here. We'll kind of walk through the the reason for this change. And it's because of the feedback from from our audience, right? So it's InfoGov Hot Seat, a governed intelligence podcast. And you'll notice that ⁓ underneath there's four areas. That will shape our conversations moving forward. And you notice there's AI, data, governance, and leadership. Of course, information governance remains at the heart of what we do, of what we talk about, but the issues facing organizations and the leaders responsible for addressing them have expanded significantly. That was the resounding theme, one of the themes at Ilticacon this past summer. And we'll get into ⁓ that a little later. But today nearly it's impossible to have a meaningful conversation about information governance without also discussing data strategy, artificial intelligence, privacy, cybersecurity, legal technology, risk, innovation, and organizational change. That's a mouthful, but seriously, that's all the conversations that we're having these days. These areas are increasingly interconnected. We might say that ⁓ AI depends on the quality and governance of underlying data. And technology adoption depends on trust, transparency, and responsible oversight. And none of these efforts can succeed without leaders who connect technology with people, processes, risk, and meaningful business outcomes. So this is what we mean by governed intelligence, using information, data, and AI to create meaningful value while ensuring that ⁓ they remain trusted, secure. responsibly managed and aligned with organizational goals. Now, of course, this is a broad perspective, a broader perspective that will guide the next chapter of this podcast while preserving what we have always defined in the show, candid practical conversations with leaders shaping how organizations manage information, adapt technology, and navigate change. So before tuning in today's discussion, I also want to recognize and thank ⁓ the founding five supporters who have helped make this next chapter possible. And ⁓ we'll put those logos on the screen. ⁓ nuko.ai, net docs, I manage lostronaut, slash filers, keepers, and future in tech. ⁓ really their early support and shared commitment to advancing thoughtful conversations about data, AI, governance, technology, and leadership have been instrumental in the evolution of this show. And of course too, we're especially pleased that one of our founding supporters, Fit Future in Tech, will be represented by Hunter on today's program. So again, thank you to each of them for believing in the importance of the conversation and supporting ⁓ this community. Well, today's discussion, it's a it's a perfect example of the dialogue that we wanna f foster. And as mentioned, Iltacon this past summer is always a useful barometer of where the legal technology market is heading. And what I mean by that is that it's not simply because of product launches at the conference, demonstrations, announcements. It's really because the conference brings together people responsible for buying, implementing. Selling, securing, governing, and ultimately realizing value from technology. So now that Iltacon 2026 has wrapped, we have an opportunity to step back from the energy of the conference floor and ask a more practical question. And that question is, what did we actually learn at this year's conference? Which trends represent meaningful changes in the market? Which trends may be getting ahead of reality? What does it take to move? A promising technology from pilot to production. That was an interesting theme throughout the show. And how can law firms and technology providers work together to produce real adoption and measurable value? So to help us answer those questions, ⁓ I'm going to be joined today. We're going to bring them out, ⁓ Jason first in a couple of moments, but I'm joined today by Jason Dirks and Hunter Nicholas. Now, Jason, he brings the perspective of law firm strategy, technology leadership, and of course his leadership role ⁓ as president of ILTA. In that conversation, we're going to discuss what he observed at Iltacon, how firms determine which technologies are ready to scale, and also why change management remains such an important part of innovation. Now Hunter on the other side brings sales, brings commercial sales and client partnership perspectives. ⁓ we'll discuss what law firm buyers are asking for, ⁓ how the buying process is changing, and also what vendors must do after a contract is signed. Right. It's only the beginning of the relationship there to produce meaningful adoption in ROI. So what we'll do is we'll spend approximately twenty minutes with each guest individually, and then we'll bring them back together for our favorite part of the show, the rapid fire hot seat round. and questions from the audience. So remember, please submit your questions in the chat throughout the show. ⁓ we want to hear what's on your mind and ⁓ we'll ask as many audience questions as the time allows. So at this time let's bring ⁓ Jason from backstage. Hey Jason.

speaker-0: Jim. Hey everybody.

speaker-1: Yeah, how's it going? Good to see ya. Yeah, absolutely. So Jason, right, let's begin, right? What you saw hot off the Ilticon floor. So you had a particularly obviously broad view of what firms, technology leaders, and vendors are discussing. ⁓ so here's my question to you. What are two or three defining shifts you saw at Ilticon this year?

speaker-0: Thanks. Good to see you as well. Yeah, I think you can't describe ⁓ Iltacon twenty twenty six without the acronym MCP. I think just about everybody at conference had one. But when we were preparing for this, I was trying to think about what does that what does that actually mean? Like what's the what's sort of the deeper message there? And what it tells me is that with all of this these tools and technologies flying around, what people are really looking for is a way to simplify their tech stack and their interface. So I'm sure a lot of folks heard sort of the single plane of glass phrase ⁓ all over the place. That was that was pretty common. And and so you you kind of marry that with this idea of MCP and and it tells me that that the real push is is how can we how can we make things easier with all of this all of this tool and and all this technology around our our organizations. The other thing, you know, as you were giving your introduction, it it jogged something for me that The the other thing that I heard that is I don't know if it's a change, but I think there's a renewed emphasis on I've heard some people describe it as kind of the last mile with with AI coming in and offering all these all these capabilities, everybody can buy that that tooling, right? So it doesn't really differentiate you as an organization, but what it does do is it places even more importance on your organization's data, your organization's work product and the things that really make you you as an organization. And that was sort of what I read into ⁓ a lot of the push for for AI and and some of the these sort of subtopics that were were springing up around it.

speaker-1: Yeah, agree with you enough. Now I know I know obviously we're talking about perspectives, you know, probably from I guess you as as the president, right, of Ilta, but I know you have a day job, right? And ⁓ I know can you tell us a little bit a little bit about your day job and how ⁓ maybe those conversations are shaping what you do at ⁓ Sure.

speaker-0: Sure. So I'm the chief innovation officer at ⁓ Banish. And what I'm really doing is ⁓ helping Banish to start an innovation function. And so I'm in a little bit different situation, I think, than than a lot of folks that are sort of coming into established innovation teams or coming into firms that have been doing innovative work for for a number of years. But what it's also giving me the opportunity to do is to rethink the way that we're we're approaching innovation. And the way that I've been talking about this internally is that AI and tooling is great, but it really has to serve a a bigger purpose. It has to serve a a business benefit. And you also need other, you know, t to to the point I just made earlier, you need other things to go along with the tooling and technology to really make a meaningful difference and a meaningful change in the business. And so we're focusing on being sort of a transformation engine or a transformation accelerator more broadly, tooling's part of it, but also data, also KM, also change management, like those are all kind of in the mix as part of our responsibility. And so that's my day job in a nutshell. Yeah.

speaker-1: That's a lot of responsibility there. A little bit. Yeah, for sure. So you talked a lot about right. I think the first step is, you know, you buy some sort of technology to determine determine what technology can succeed, you know, across the firm. But ⁓ let's talk about how product actually makes that ⁓ that journey. So here's here's another question. How do we switch from how do we move from pilot, you know? to production. So here's the question, what specific criteria in your mind must the technology tool satisfy before you're comfortable deploying it firm wide? And where do most solutions fail during the that evaluation process?

speaker-0: That's a good question. I th I mean, obviously there's a lot of things I think you have to meet and it, you know, it differs firm by firm. Everybody's got their own policies and requirements and a lot of those things are driven by client demands and client guidelines. But one thing I would say is when you started with ⁓ step one is buying the technology, I think for me what the real step one is is identifying the business need or the business driver and That to me is the criteria then on the on the backside that really drives whether we're rolling something out more broadly is how well is it, is it providing the value that we thought it was going to provide in the first place? And is it going to allow us to achieve the transformation that we're, that we're looking for? And if it does, great. And if not, then you know, we may have to look for for other solutions or we may have to sort of revisit our goals. But that's to me the sort of the number one gating factor. And then As we roll it out more broadly, I think you continue to test that that theory, that thesis. Like, is it doing and driving the change that you want it to outside of this small test group? Or did you have did you make assumptions about the test group that don't hold true once you start going more broad? And do you have to continue to sort of pivot and change, or do you need to look at new tooling altogether?

speaker-1: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. I I agree. Obviously if we're not if we're not solving a problem within the organization, why why are we really ⁓ you know, buying the technology?

speaker-0: Playing with toys at that point.

speaker-1: And there's a lot of toys out there.

speaker-0: There are ⁓ my god, there's so many.

speaker-1: Yeah, for sure. Now just a follow up question on this this pilot to ⁓ to production because you made me think of if a vendor wants to like improve its chances from because obviously it's all about this partnership with with our vendors, right, with our business partners. ⁓ if it wants to improve its chances of moving from pilot to production, what what do you think in your mind should the the business partner provide at the beginning of the evaluation?

speaker-0: Yeah, I mean I think it's I I think a big part of it is is working and partnering with the the the organization you're working with to understand the best you can what their you know what their business proposition is. And and some mature programs may be able to articulate this right off the bat, right? They may be doing doing everything in the right order and they're they're articulating at all the need up front and and structuring the pilot. And some may be way more ad hoc, but to the extent that the the vendor or the business partner can help articulate that and help articulate the goals, the more, I think the, the easier it'll be to sort of make that transition. It's sort of like when you're, when you're negotiating, you know, one of the tactics is to s to give, you know, give the the vendor, give the salespeople that you're working with the talking points that they need to make the case. Right. And so I think in this case it's the the reverse is true. Give the you know, give the organization the the data or the arguments or the talking points that they need to move the move the technology from pilot to production and you just make their their life easier in sort of making the business case or making you know, making the justification to their to their boss or whoever's sort of approving the the spend.

speaker-1: Yeah, those are some those some fair points. ⁓ so I mentioned, you know, there was gonna be some audience questions. So in the middle of I think your conversation with your team and and talking about technology and things, there is a question ⁓ in the audience from Rachel. ⁓ I don't know if you can see it, but I'm gonna read I'm gonna refer, I'm gonna tell you the question. And it is a question that I would probably ask too as well. I think we talked about it a little bit while we were at the conference together, but Do you have a 'cause I know you're new to the role, right? Obviously it's a new role within the firm, but do you have a dedicated governance function at the moment?

speaker-0: So it depends on what we're talking about i in terms of governance. We do have a dedicated information governance function, which is more ⁓ centered around records, retention, those kinds of things. We don't yet have dedicated data governance. That's something that as part of my role and and part of being new to to Benish, I'm working on standing up that we're going to need. Now, whether that is a dedicated function or it's some sort of collaborative mechanic. I think that's still open. ⁓ and we'll kind of see where that where that falls. I'm working with a with a consultant to help us understand kind of what capabilities we have and what what recommendations they might have for how to take that going forward. But that kind of covers I think the two main areas that I'm aware of, unless unless there's a different level of governance that she's referring to.

speaker-1: No, I think that's great. I think that makes sense. I love how you distinguish between like the traditional, you know, I I call like records management function, like retention disposition, all that policy, all that stuff, maybe even compliance. And then like I call the the emerging governance function with like the data governance and and all that stuff, especially around, you know, partnering probably with innovation around around AI, ⁓ for sure. So great question. I actually got a follow what, yep. So there is a comment. I think that ⁓ That says sh so Rachel agreed, ⁓ governance should be ⁓ cross functional. So love it. Great question, Rachel. Thanks.

speaker-0: Heading in the right direction, that's good to know.

speaker-1: Yeah, listen, that's the beauty part of this this ⁓ you know, this live show is ask questions, right? This is the I I know obviously ⁓ this is definitely will be posted. You know, obviously there'll be recording and there'll be some edits, but this is like the unfiltered version. So keep those questions, ⁓ questions coming. ⁓ so here's another one. Let's talk a little bit about change management, right? Attorney adoption. That's ⁓ that's easier said than done, I think you would agree. Yeah.

speaker-0: ⁓ a hundred percent. Yeah. I've I've referred to it as the long tail of adoption. One of my previous bosses ⁓ was sh she was really big on on focusing on adoption. And I think it's one of those things that has to be sort of a persistent and ongoing effort. It's not something that's like a drop in the bucket or or or a one time thing. And that's why when I was talking about this function here at Vanish, I made change management one of our primary pillars so that it's it's something that we can be focusing on on on an ongoing basis and there's there's always something to focus on, right? We need we need greater adoption in in this tool or we need to understand why this tool is is dropping off. It it helps sort of close the loop for us from an innovation standpoint so that we're getting that inner i information back into the sort of mouth of the funnel and then we can make decisions and choices based on based on that information. But yeah. It's huge, it's ongoing and and I think it's ⁓ under emphasized in in most places that I know.

speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. I mean I know some places too have like create a separate function, just like a change function. I mean we're obviously a lot of firms aren't there yet, but what do you think about that? Like creating a change function, or do you think like we all should be kind of change agents within the firm on that this level?

speaker-0: It's yeah, I don't the the the dedicated function versus versus everybody's everybody's responsibility, that's always a tough one. people people talk about that in the context of innovation and and sort of other concepts as well. I don't know that I fall anywhere specific. I think a lot of the decisions you make about whether it's dedicated or whether it's collaborative bear pretty heavily on the culture of your organization and also just what resources are available. The the one thing though that I I've been sort of has been my pet issue around change management lately, I saw a post on LinkedIn a while back about how sort of continuous change is the new normal. And there was something about that that just sort of bristled with me and and like rubbed me the wrong way. And I'm like, that cannot be the case. A as somebody who's been in innovation, I I feel like I'm a little bit more change tolerant than than the average bear. But even I was like, that's too much. Like I can't I there's no way. Like even everything we have going on right now with generative AI, it just it it feels exhausting. And when I think about this in the context of change management, I start to wonder whether change is going to be something more like a managed resource that we're going to have to protect and and sort of meter out like we do things like things like our our monetary resources or you know, our our people time or things like that. So thinking about change as something that we only have this much of it that we're you know, that we're allocating and, you know, we've we've gotta figure out which projects we're gonna fit in that window.

speaker-1: Yeah, that's always the struggle I think every year, right? We're probably most of us are in that budget cycle and we're trying to figure out like what projects are we gonna bring over from twenty twenty six to twenty twenty seven. There's always I think I don't know if you'd agree, probably, but I mean we always try to say, Hey, we're not gonna add anything new but it's almost impossible, right, to add it to not add anything new and bring the the other stuff over to the next year.

speaker-0: it's it's also a another part of it is also just making sure you have the the open dialogue and collaboration with the other teams that are rolling out changes too, right? Like you might have multiple teams rolling out technology changes, but you also might have teams like, you know, finance, HR, marketing that are rolling out changes that maybe aren't technical but are affecting the same, you know, the same population. So I think you've gotta be going f a at least my thought on this is. You've gotta be a little bit more thoughtful about change going forward and making sure you're avoiding those those collisions wherever you can so you're not just sort of exhausting your your users or or the people that you're serving.

speaker-1: So we talked about like obviously the ability to connect t technology, workflows, people, measurable outcomes, ⁓ it's becoming central, right, to legal the legal technology profession. But let's close this individual segment by looking at how the role of the legal technologists and ILTA itself is evolving. So here's a question. ILTA ⁓ or looking ahead, ⁓ what do legal technologists need to learn or perhaps unlearn? To remain effective and how is Ilta evolving to support them?

speaker-0: take on the second part first and and it'll and I think I'll circle back around.

speaker-1: You're the president, so you could do whatever you want, you know. Sure. ⁓

speaker-0: think ILT is undergoing a ⁓ strategic planning ⁓ this year, which is is great in that it's forcing us to, you know, look introspectively at what the organization's doing and thinking about how it's serving its members. And one of the things that that has been really clear to all of us that have been tied into this process in some form or fashion is how broad the community has gotten around around legal technology. You know, we've grown into areas like Like knowledge management and information governance and data. And and we're we're seeing titles that didn't exist 10, 15, 20 years ago for specializations or for areas that that that didn't even exist ⁓ five years ago. And so really what we're trying to do as an organization is kind of cast a broader net and and understand that that our community is becoming much more diverse in terms of their jobs and their skill sets, and trying to understand then from an organizational perspective, how do we best serve a a community that's sort of broadening in scope and becoming more diverse in in role and skills? And so I think my counsel to to sort of legal technologists and folks in this space is as the as the market starts to sort of diversify and specialize, I think you just have to stay on top of it and understand where you're going and sort of pick your pick your poison and understand that, ⁓ well, you know, generalization in a certain area may have worked five years ago, it may not work today, and we you've got to kind of figure out where you're gonna where you're gonna lean in and and specialize in certain areas.

speaker-1: Yeah, that makes makes a lot of sense. I mean, I think and and no firm's the same. Right? I mean we were in we were in a couple of sessions together and like we're talking about our teams and who's part of our team and the size of our firm and you know, we could be similar size firms and we're like totally different, you know.

speaker-0: Yeah, w I mean we were in the we were in a a session for for chief in innovation officers and I don't think any one of us defined in ino the scope of innovation the same, which was kinda wild.

speaker-1: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that session was amazing. Hopefully it continues. ⁓ I think it will. Yeah, we'll continue the conversation on through, you know, this year and next. So ⁓ so again, I think Yeah. I mean I think, you know, one of the themes that I heard in in all your answers is that successful, you know, innovation requires far more than, you know, selecting the the right product. It's it requires strategic direction, ⁓ or objectives, you know, evaluation of criteria, ⁓ strong leadership, ⁓ governance, of course. And obviously attention of people so that we can see where the technology creates value. So again, Jason, thanks so much for sharing your perspective. We'll bring you bring you back shortly for the joint hot seat with ⁓ with Hunter. So we'll ⁓ Yeah, we'll allow you to rest for a little bit. So now that we've examined ⁓ how you know law firms evaluate, ⁓ implement, and govern technology, ⁓ let's turn to the other side of that relationship. And that's where ⁓ vendors are hearing from buyers and how the buying process is really changing and ⁓ what it creates and and how it takes ⁓ to create value after the sale. ⁓ so let's bring Hunter Nicholas here to the hot seat. Welcome. How's it going man? I know you've been waiting for this moment, you know, being on this podcast, you know

speaker-2: Good to see you. That I have been. Great to see with great to be with everybody.

speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely, man. Well, so I obviously hunter, you know, you you've come in you're obviously coming from a different perspective. ⁓ before we get into some questions and talk about OTICON, why don't you kinda introduce yourself, you know, who you are, what you do, maybe a little bit about the about the company, 'cause obviously I know ⁓ very grateful for ⁓ you know, future in tech support of the podcast.

speaker-2: Most definitely. Well, ⁓ for those who don't know, my name is Hunter Nicholas, Vice President of Sales here for the Fit team. Been in software for going on eight to nine years now. And yeah, been in the legal tech space for going on three years with the Fit team. But at a high level, Fit is a leading records management and information governance provider. We also provide solutions across the Matter Mobility front for laterals and departures. That's kind of fit, you know, thirty thirty thousand feet. So definitely at a very exciting juncture in space with AI. The realm and really the info gov Hotseat.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, man. You guys are doing some really innovative stuff with your technology. So I know you were at Iltacon, right? I saw you on the floor. You're busy moving, shaking, having lots of conversations. So here's a question. What were your biggest ⁓ pain points or the well not your biggest pain points, what were the biggest pain points law firm leaders were asking for your team to solve ⁓ this year?

speaker-2: Yeah, it's a it's a great question. I think it's been a consistent pain point over the past few ills I've I've attended, which is interesting to me, but really getting a grasp on the data estate, right? The data sprawl. ⁓ you know, data's become so much more prevalent over the past few years. And really understanding, you know, how people can put processes, procedures in place across, you know, retention, disposition, matter mobility from security of perspective as well. So those are some of our expectations going in. And ⁓ it's been pretty consistent, which I found to be interesting.

speaker-1: Yeah, no, absolutely. Those are those are some pretty consistent concerns. Everybody's worried about security and and I know you guys are doing some cool stuff around ⁓ w was there like a was there something that you released at the conference that got people all jazzed up that you wanted to share?

speaker-2: Yeah, we can ⁓ definitely highlight that. ⁓ we released a kind of feature and tool set that we refer to as Insight. And ⁓ funny enough, Jim, with the the new logo for the hot seat kind of played right in hand with it. So at Fit we're really looking at how we can turn governance and data right into an intelligence layer, right, for our clients and for firms. And I think you beat us to it with that new logo rebrand. Right.

speaker-1: You should have trademarked it, man. You know. But ⁓ no, that's awesome. No, I know I know you guys were doing some ⁓ had a couple of meetings with the Fit team, obviously. Yeah. So you guys were very busy. ⁓ lots of partnerships going on. So Yeah, so so ⁓ obviously, you know, recognizing the buyer's problem is is always the first step. I know we we mentioned that. You know, a vendor I don't really like the word vendor. So you know a business partner, there we go. Still has yeah, partner still has to

speaker-2: Very much so.

speaker-1: To navigate, you know, decision making process involving more stakeholders, you know, greater scrutiny, more attention to risk than ever before. So so here's a question. Law firm procurement, right? IG privacy, security teams are more involved, you know, they they put you through the ringer. Right. Right. Really, right? F especially on the security front, more demanding than ever. So here's a question. What separates a deal that closes from one that becomes stuck in security review or internal approvals?

speaker-2: It's great question. You know, really from first hand experience, it would be being candid, I think, throughout the the the sales process as well, right? Because at the end of the day you're building a relationship with the firm or a given organization and understanding when to move the right ⁓ chess pieces on the board. So when those fun conversations come up, knowing when, you know, it's okay to say, I don't know, let me bring in my CISO, right, from a vendor or partner perspective. And as well as really giving, I think, procurement and security teams a look into your guys' roadmap, right? ⁓ from a partner perspective, because in my personal opinion, more and more firms and organizations are not looking to just procure what you offer today, but what you can pr procure tomorrow, right? As these organizations continue to grow and evolve at such a fast rate.

speaker-1: Yeah, what you what you said resonated with me, just being up front, right? Being open and honest, right? 'Cause I at some point, I mean, listen, especially if you're dealing with law firms, right, we find out. ⁓ yeah. And then we away. Yeah, exactly, right. So I think and and that seriously though, I mean that that kind of starts a a partnership on the right foot, you know, being able to have those conversations. ⁓ and look, I think I hope at at some point I know there's a lot of there's a lot of solutions out there, right, that that business partners can use for security review and the different questions. And I know there's you know, you can use a you know a standard, you know, maybe a a a SOC two report or ⁓ I guess to that question, I mean, what are you seeing on the security side? Are you seeing like firms just like 'cause a lot of firms are like SOC two compliant and or ISO twenty seven thousand one compliant. Spot on yeah I mean are are you are you seeing like would you just send If you sent a firm your SOC to application or your accreditation and your ISO twenty seven thousand one, is that enough for for most firms or do they want to know a little more? For

speaker-2: For most firms I would say it is, maybe giving a little snippet away for the audience, but we try and make it as easy as possible from a security perspective, right? When we get asked those questions to deliver everything in a, you know, a nice envelope essentially. So we try and minimize that back and back and forth discussion. I also do think it makes a good impression on those folks within the firm that are, you know, going through our certs and audits. We're also working on FedRamp. FedRamp has been coming up ⁓ with some of the larger firms, which has been interesting. And ⁓ we're working on some AI certifications as well, just trying to really get ahead from a security posture perspective, as I think that's gonna be a tailwind ⁓ heading into twenty seven and you know, the years to come.

speaker-1: Yeah, it makes sense. I and what I'm seeing too, I I know I I saw this trend amongst, you know, just some compliance colleagues at at Inticon. You know, it is definitely a conversation within circles that ⁓ you know, firms vendor management programs are getting way more I think robust. We're seeing firms dedicate actual teams to vendor management. It's not like somebody's second job. a real procurement process. Whereas I think most most law firm clients have, you know, a whole procurement division. And like that's literally all they do every single day is look at contracts and you know, look at all these things for different vendors and onboarding. So ⁓ you know, who knows, maybe that maybe that trend will continue and make things a little easier on the on the business partner side.

speaker-2: I think it will. In my opinion, it ⁓ it it makes sense to allocate proper resources on that front just 'cause that's really the floodgate between, you know, the organization, the firm and all the partners. So

speaker-1: Yeah, the only saving grace I'll tell you is don't don't worry about it. I mean our clients we we go through the same law firms go through the same ⁓ exercise with clients. So don't feel bad and we just we just kinda pass that on to you. So it's like that's why that's why we need the true partnership between the client, the law firm and the and the business partner, right? We all gotta be down the line. So so we're in it. We're in it with you. So ⁓ Very good. So here's another question. You know, almost every technology vendor now claims to have an AI story, right? I mean, I talked to so many legal tech providers. I mean, I talked to them on the show floor at Ilticon, I've talked to them after the show. We'll continue to have a conversation. Everybody's talking about AI. You go on people's websites and it's like AI this, AI that, right? ⁓ and you look under the hood and sometimes it's not really AI, right? It's just some automation that we've had for twenty years. You know, how do you cut through the the market noise and build genuine trust with skeptical ⁓ innovation and technology?

speaker-2: Yeah, I definitely think there's a few ways to do that. And one would be being able to measure the ROI, right? That you are providing as a partner or a business partner, I should say, you know, to firms, right? It's not just marketable AI, but it's really AI with an ROI, in my opinion. And I think that's something a lot of firms are building processes out. And even from a partnership standpoint, I think that's really the silver lining is a lot of these organizations ⁓ claim to have AI. As we all know, we were at ILTA a few weeks back, but it's it's the value that you can bring and making sure you're a part of that procurement process for the years to come. In my opinion, too, there's a very few amount of large LLMs that people are actually using. So I think you have to ask yourself, are you hoping that the model you're using is gonna be the differentiator or is it gonna be the AI within your organization that's gonna be the differentiator? And to me that's gonna be a pretty defining theme probably for the next year or two, which I'm excited to see how that evolves.

speaker-1: Yeah, me as well. I'm not even gonna ask you about Astro right now with open AI. I'm not even gonna ask you about that LLM that came out specific to law firms, you know, because I know Yeah. ⁓ yeah. I mean now there's there's open AI. I talked to a contact at OpenAI at Anthropic, at Google. I mean now they're in the law firm. You know, they're in the law firm arena, right, selling to firms. Yeah, man, and still you got the you know, the Harveys, the Gores, the Nucos, the Gylos, the

speaker-2: Everyone's getting in the fight.

speaker-1: you know, all the other, I guess, traditional law firm AI solutions, but now you got the heavy hitters, right? You got the the Googles and Open AIs and Anthropics coming into legal. So we're live, so why not a ask you this question? I mean, where does fit kind of fit in with that conversation? Yeah.

speaker-2: I think fit's at a super unique juncture and so are a lot of information governance providers, right? Because without proper governance, good data, that model's not gonna perform at, you know, the highest caliber. And I think that shines light to, you know, what some large firms have even done. Even for example, you know, Kirkland, Latham, they're not looking to some of these large names to be the differentiator. They're they're looking in house, right? Underneath the hood and they're hoping that's the edge, you know, and that's not for me to put my opinion on, but I think Fit sits at that juncture where we're kind of looking to be in the middle, you know, within that process because everything is gonna flow through the government's policies, procedures from a record life cycle standpoint. And I think Fit's also looking to really expand from a data orchestration standpoint and how can we connect with as many, you know, solutions and partners as possible to provide a higher ROA for our clients today. So yeah.

speaker-1: think that makes that makes a lot of sense. You know, the the the sky's the limit, I think, for there there's just so much noise out there. But you said something about governance of data. I mean that was like a resounding theme I think at you know at the conference this year. I think it'll continue. Yeah. I think I know we'll both be at at Arma in a couple months and and that'll be a theme there. 'Cause I really think the the evolution of the governance function, I think partnering with IT and innovation is is kind of gonna be the the team of the future that that's able to drive adoption within within our firms for sure. 'Cause I think the first question people are people ask right away, at least what I asked when the when that was like the the Astro ⁓ solution that the L L ⁓ came out, I was like, Well what data is it trained on? Like that's the first question, right? I mean that's what everybody's asking. So yeah, yeah, for sure. So it's it's definitely at the core. So here's another question, right? Sign contract, it's only the start, you know, this, right? Obviously we We do business together, so you know that w we're still talking after the contract. Yeah. So what does a successful ⁓ post sale partnership look like and how do you ensure that a firm achieves meaningful adoption and measures ROI?

speaker-2: Great question. Probably my favorite question. The you know, post sales pretty intimate to myself personally. Really, I mean, for what we've seen firsthand is making sure the right stakeholders are in place, you know, from from the jump, from an implementation migration standpoint plays a huge role as you really set the tone between you, the firm and or the organization before the engagement really starts. You know, it never starts from signature, it starts from getting the proper teams involved, making sure people have proper training, making sure they enjoy the tool. And then from there something I do personally on the fit side is I always like to be involved. So basically whether we have bi weekly meetings, weekly meetings with clients, yes, they're gonna meet some new faces and new names, but they're always gonna hopefully recognize ⁓ my face for people that work kind of more in the partnership sales perspective, right? Because I think when you lose that touch and don't speak with a client after a few months, you know, it could be a year. You don't have that same chemistry. And by keeping that relationship intimate, you're also able to ask kind of a harder questions and the firms are able to kind of open up a bit more. And through that, in my opinion, you're able to achieve a greater ROI for us as an organization as well as for our clients by, you know, building out new features that we haven't thought of. most of our feature rollouts on a monthly cadence are from having canon conversations with clients and friends in the industry. So The sale always happens, I think, after signature. ⁓ and there's nothing better than having a good reference, right? So, you know, that's always the best salesman.

speaker-1: Yep. Happy client happy life.

speaker-2: Exactly. We had to trademark that one, there we go.

speaker-1: Keep coming back for more, you know. Exactly. For sure, for sure. Yeah, I mean listen, accountability, I think you you hit the nail on the head there. Always have to have some accountability, you know. Too often, you know, you sign the contract and then poof the the business partner's gone. Yeah. Out of sight, out of mind. Yeah, but but that really can't happen now with today's technology. With AI, it's moving so fast. So ⁓ you know, happy to hear I knew it was, but happy to hear hear from you live on the show that that's ⁓ you know, near dear to to how you guys do business at ⁓ at Fitz. So so again, great conversation here. So we're gonna bring Jason back because we're gonna get into some fun stuff to do a joint hot seat round. I do have a question that I did not even tell you both that I'm gonna ask because it is the hot seat. It has nothing to do with legal tech at all. ⁓ so so I'm gonna I'm gonna show my, you know, listen, don't worry, I got my little water bottle here, Jason. So forgive me. Okay. if ⁓ if I ask you ⁓ you know a a tough question. But ⁓ since it is football season, I wanna know what's your team? Hunter, who's your team?

speaker-2: get in trouble for this but ⁓ I'm really Switzerland. I just like I like to watch good football. Don't have a team.

speaker-1: Really? So you like the the football? Okay. I am. So no American football. All right.

speaker-2: I used No so I like to watch good teams play.

speaker-1: All right, so you like watching the Jets play?

speaker-2: Exactly. You and I can go to a Jets game. There we go.

speaker-1: ⁓ my goodness. All right, Jason, how about you?

speaker-0: I I live in Chicago but I'm a I'm a diehard Lions fan. You're you're welcome for Aaron Glenn, by the way.

speaker-1: Yeah, well we'll see if that's we'll see if I'm saying you're welcome after this Sunday. I think we're playing each other. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that should be fun. Awesome. Well yeah, obviously I told you I'm a Jeff fan, but ⁓ yeah, that's a good it was a good warm up. ⁓ so again, we're gonna the way this round works, basically, ⁓ you you're both welcome to you know, there'll be concise answers like thirty to six forty five seconds. ⁓ you're both welcome to disagree, right? That w that's what makes it kind of fun, but ⁓ you know what you can't do is give a five minute answer. I don't think e either one of you will do will do that. But ⁓ and to everyone watching live, ⁓ there's still time after this round to submit a question ⁓ in the chat. So if there's something you'd like ⁓ Jason or Hunter to address, ⁓ send it. ASAP ⁓ we'll include as many audience questions ⁓ as time permits before we close. So all right. So the first question gonna ask you Jason. So let's begin with one word or one short phrase. ⁓ what was the defining theme of Iltacon twenty twenty six?

speaker-0: I'm gonna go with what I what I said at the beginning. ⁓ I it's hard to come up with a different phrase outside of MCP. It was just like it it permeated the entire conference.

speaker-1: All right, MCP hunter. Cross.

speaker-2: say convergence across a million fronts as well. We can throw MCP in there.

speaker-1: All right, you're being too nice to the president, but you know. That's okay. That's all right. That's all right. All right, here's the second question. This is in the in the category of most overhyped trend. ⁓ Hunter, what is one legal technology trend or buzzword that is currently overhyped?

speaker-2: Say workflow.

speaker-1: workflow. I might I might have to get back to that. Jason, what about you?

speaker-0: know if this is a hot take or not, but I think Gen AI is overhyped to be frank. ⁓ I just think I don't think it's gonna I don't think it's useless. I think it's absolutely gonna be gonna be useful. It's gonna be transformative. ⁓ but ⁓ I've heard ⁓ if you haven't heard the I I won't get into it now 'cause I'll go over my five minutes, but if you haven't heard the microwave analogy for AI, ⁓ that's kind of where I fall ⁓ around sort of how I think it's gonna be used. ⁓ I just think it's ⁓ the hype is outstripping the the utility at this point.

speaker-1: All right, I gotta ask five questions for these two. So Hunter, workflow. Why why? What what's so what's so overhyped about workflow? I'd just rather consider use case.

speaker-2: Yeah, it's more of like a blanket, you know, buzzword in my opinion. It's like, you know, we do workflows, we'll, you know, define that. You know, workflow workflows have been around for a long time. What's the ROI again, kind of bleeding back to that topic in my opinion?

speaker-1: I like it, pointing back to revenue. Right? R O I. That's the name of the game anyway. And Gen AI, Jason, like what come on man, isn't isn't like everybody's got a Gen AI solution.

speaker-0: Okay. So the I mean the the the microwave analogy is that and I didn't come up with this, a a lot of other people have have articulated it, but it's basically that that Gen AI is kind of like a microwave is to our kitchen. When it first came out we didn't exactly know how it was gonna be used, so we tried it with lots of different things and then as it was out longer and longer we found out the things that it's good at, like reheating leftovers and we found out the things that it's not good at, like, you know, making a steak dinner. So nobody would ever consider a microwave like their, you know, standalone tool in the kitchen that you don't you don't use anything else. It it's good for certain things and it it stinks at other things. And I think that's probably the path we're on with Gen AI at this point. But it's being touted, the reason I say it's overhyped is it's being touted as if it's sort of a magic wand for just about any problem you might face. And it th I just haven't seen that to be true.

speaker-1: All right, I'll buy it. I'll buy that. With ⁓ yeah, and generative AI too, the other the other thing that happens too is every day it's generative, right? So every time you're generating something new, it's a new thing every single time, a new output. So here's the here's another another category. How to lose a buyer. So Jason, this one's specifically for you. So what is the fastest way for a cold and listen, listen up, Hunter, okay? ⁓ what's the fastest way for a cold bender pitch? To lose your interest in the first thirty seconds.

speaker-0: First 30 seconds, I guess I would say ⁓ if you're a lot of the the pools that I play in are are tools that are meant for attorneys to use in practice. If you're in that space and you're pitching to me and you don't know anything about law firms or you articulate things that make no sense in the law firm context, you're gonna lose me pretty quick. I don't believe that law firms need to have law firm specific technology for everything that they do, but when it comes to When it comes to the lawyers and their practices, you you've got to understand the the basic mechanics of of legal and law firms. Right.

speaker-1: I agree with you. So Hunter, what's the biggest mistake ⁓ technology sales representatives make when pitching CIOs and other senior law firm leaders?

speaker-2: Great question. Really, I would say pitching the product before understanding the value add, right? Really feature dumping. You know, Jason's point was well spoken as well. Really not understanding why you're a part of the conversation and just trying to open up the door.

speaker-1: You agree, Jason?

speaker-0: Yeah. I mean he's he's basically circling back around to to what I what I said at the beginning, which was, you know, you gotta ground it in in business value and and and sort of problems you're trying to solve. And so I agree with that from you know, from the innovation side. I agree with it from the from the business partner and sales side as well. As long as we're ⁓ grounding everything in that, ⁓ it makes for a much easier conversation.

speaker-1: Absolutely. All right. So here's the next one. Under the radar technology, Jason, here's a question. ⁓ besides generative AI, your favorite term, what under the radar technology or capability will have the biggest impact on law firms over the next three years?

speaker-0: I guess one one area that comes to mind for me is historically law firms have really struggled with ⁓ gathering experience data. It's typically done super manually by ⁓ have having to have lawyers enter detailed information into forms. It's it's really painful. I've been hearing a lot of ⁓ vendors from different angles trying to get at automating experience data or at least partially automating experience data. So being able to infer things from Things like time card entries, ⁓ DM work product, even like attorneys on the matter and things like that. ⁓ so using the the sort of universe of data that you have around ⁓ a matter to to make inferences about the the detailed metadata about the work that's being done. I don't know it's not super mature yet, so it remains to be seen if it's gonna work, but it seems really interesting and really promising. ⁓ and if it if it can be done right, I think it would be huge.

speaker-1: Hunter, what about you?

speaker-2: I would say data orchestration, really, you know, being able to intelligently connect all these fun tools and solutions firms and organizations are utilizing today. I think there's gonna be a lot more ROI by doing that. And I don't think that's really been focused on today in the market, at least. It's always like what's the next tool that we can add to the stack without looking into how can we improve our current stack?

speaker-1: Yeah, I g I see that trend. I I mean at some point, I mean, I think firms and corporations are just buying at will. I do think that's slowing down a little bit. I think that's ⁓ you know, hey, let's look at our existing technology and see if it solves the problem before we buy something else. ⁓ so I think that's a a pretty fair fair statement. So complete this sentence. We'll start with you, Hunter. In twenty thirty, right? Four years from now. Isn't it crazy? Twenty thirty is four years from now. It's insane. ⁓ A law firm that has not modernized its technology strategy will be blank. How about you, Jason?

speaker-2: Reactive.

speaker-0: I'm gonna I'm gonna take the cynical view. I've been in this industry for a minute. I'm gonna say more common than we think.

speaker-1: More common than we think. I was gonna say out of business, but I thought you were gonna take that field, but but ⁓ cool. We'll have to wait and see. Four years from now, we'll remember this conversation.

speaker-0: We'll come back for the for the redo.

speaker-2: Time flies with being illegal, so

speaker-0: You can ⁓ you can hold me accountable for my gen AI take if I'm wrong.

speaker-1: Yeah, no, yeah, listen. I I I like the I like the different take. I like it. I don't think it's a very no, I I agree. It is it is the the term is is thrown around way too often without having enough context, ⁓ for sure. All right, so let's close this hot seat with one ⁓ you know, brief takeaway from each of you. So what what is the one idea ⁓ you want legal technology leaders to carry forward from Iltacon ⁓ twenty twenty six? Jason, we'll ask you first.

speaker-0: I mean I think it's I think it's the I think it's the piece that I I kind of shoehorned in earlier, which is we we have to be really conscious about the change that we're imposing on our on our users and our and the people we serve. And ⁓ that needs to be just as much a part of our calculus as is, you know, dollars and IT resources and things like that. ⁓ we need to be sensitive about the degree of change we're imposing on people.

speaker-1: How about you? What's your takeaway?

speaker-2: I would say the takeaway would be to not be afraid of firms and organizations, you know, to have hard conversations with their business partners would would be my takeaway.

speaker-1: ⁓ you're gonna have a hard conversation soon.

speaker-2: I walked into something there, didn't I?

speaker-1: I know. I know you're ready. I know you're ready anyway. So no, that's awesome. You're good support. Yeah, I mean listen, there's ⁓ I'm interested to see, you know, what ⁓ what this next year brings. You know, I mean the the conversations around especially the I can't help to think about the the opening keynote with Jim Abbott. It was just so inspirational. I think it's just what we needed, I think, as a industry to really start thinking about how important our roles are with our organizations, whether we're you know, at a business partner, at a firm, at a corporation, whatever. I mean, now is the the time to to really seize and I I I've never before I've never seen business professionals and lawyers working so close together to for like a similar purpose. Like I haven't seen that. I don't know if either of you have a have a comment on that, but I've never seen that before. AI has kind of brought people together.

speaker-0: No, I I agree with you. I mean, it's been upending firm structures because IT hasn't been ti ⁓ you know, historically used to having to have people that close to the to the practice of law. And so you're either seeing new types of teams spring up in in IT or you're seeing teams that are ⁓ running in parallel with IT that sort of work more directly with the practices. But yeah, no, I'm I'm with you. It's ⁓ the The all of this is getting much, much closer to the practices than it has been.

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well well listen, Jason, you know, thank you ⁓ so much for for sharing your perspective, ⁓ not only within a law firm, but in your day job, but also your leadership role within ILTA. ⁓ Hunter, thanks so much ⁓ for bringing the vendor, buyer, and even the post sale partnership perspective to the discussion. I think I think we need more of these conversations with with law firms and ⁓ business partners because it again, it's a it's a true partnership. I appreciate both of you, you know, joining us and being willing to to be on the hot seat. It wasn't too hot, right? No. Absolutely. Yeah, no, and thank and thank you as well, everyone who participated in the conversation, the ⁓ the questions, the comments ⁓ submitted through the chat and of course too, ⁓ thanks to the founding supporters once again, New Code, Net Docs, iManage, Lastronaut, Future and Tech. ⁓ the support has been very helpful ⁓ for these practical

speaker-0: No right.

speaker-2: It was great time. So thank you, Jim.

speaker-1: conversations about data AI governance and leadership. So to everyone watching or listening, ⁓ you know, joining us for this live recording of the Infogev Hot Seat, a governed intelligent podcast, we hope today's conversation ⁓ gave you practical ideas ⁓ for evaluating technology, improving adoption, strengthening a relationship between firms and vendors, and translating innovation into measurable value. So I'll Thank you so much. ⁓ I'm Jim Merrifield and I'll see you back in the hot seat. Take care, everyone.